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Good Day to everybody out there who is listening, podcast audience, local government leaders around the country. My name is Bill Stark, thank you for being with us today and tuning in to our podcast. And we have a really terrific topic to dive into today, around the topic of DEI. My name is Bill Stark, I'm one of the cofounders of LeaderGov. And

along with my business partner, Tim Fenbert, he and I love serving local governments around the country cities and counties, tax Commission's all sorts of different types of agencies a lot of public safety. And so we know that in this audience is a wide range of folks, we got city and county managers, Finance Directors, community development,

lots of different public works, folks. So wherever you're tuning in from and whatever your title or rank, it doesn't matter to us. We're just glad that you're here. We love you. We care about you, we want the best for you. And we think this topic today of D in the local government workplace is a really important topic that, you know, people have talked about, and it's obviously in the news a good bit and we just want to dig into it today. Give you some, some framework around it. And then how can you approach it successfully in your local government as a leader, how can you lead the EOD and so we have a wonderful guest today a friend of ours, Quionna Allen is with us. She's the CEO of Beyond Racial Equity. How are you today? I'm fantastic. Hi, Bill. Great to be here. Good. Yeah, yeah, it's nice to be with you too. And we're so glad you could make some time and hear some of your insights and some of what you've learned.

We know that you deal with you work with not only local, private businesses, but you also work with some local government agencies. And so we're looking forward to, to hearing about that I wanted to just kind of introduce you Quionna and kind of give the folks listening, an idea of who you are and kind of what you do. And so I just want to share some of your bio with, with the folks listening today. You're the CEO of Caldwell, Allen consulting, HR consulting firm, also co founder of Beyond Racial Equity. The brand is supports organizations and learning, planning and acting on their D strategy. Together. Quionna is also on a mission to transform the employee experience by improving trust, collaboration and accountability. Those are three words we love. So love that. Also 20 years of corporate HR experience and you've worked in multiple industries with a variety of leaders and employee populations across the globe. So a lot of pretty broad range of experience.

You have a master's degree in industrial organizational psychology from University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, bachelor's degree in psychology from Tuskegee University awesome. One lesson that Kiana wishes she learned earlier in her career, is the importance of understanding and nurturing her superpower. Wow, I want to hear more about that. Overall over her career, John has learned that we each bring unique characteristics to the environments that we are within. And that difference can serve as a balance when recognized and appreciated. Today, Quionna is most proud of the conversations that she and her team are facilitating about diversity, equity and inclusion within organizations. And also, obviously, your two daughters are way up on the list somewhere.

Right? So you're, you're staying busy. It sounds like a busy professional life, busy home life. Before we jump into all the questions which I've got four, four questions kind of teed up. I wanted to dig in. We're curious tell us.

We'd like to have kind of a fun question at the beginning. So tell us like What is your favorite food? If you if you were on the moon by yourself for a year? What's that one food that you just you just gotta have Quionna?

Wow, one. There's so many that I enjoy it probably too often. But if I had to select one, I would say I take it back to my roots. I'm originally from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And so crawfish at two Fe would be my favorite

dish that I would love to have on.

Ah, oh, Tish Ed TV. Yeah. So now did you grow up cheering for LSU or another college?

down in Louisiana. So my parents attended Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And so typically, if I were cheering for our football team, it was it was Southern, one of my uncle's to play for LSU. And so

I definitely cheered for LSU at times. But growing up, my sister went to UGA. And you know, moving here to Atlanta, it's hard to it's hard to choose. So. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. A lot to choose from now is is Southern an HBCU. It is not. It is okay. Okay, awesome. Well, that's great.

My, we've got where I'm from Mississippi. So

that part of the country is I'm pretty familiar with. So that's neat. That's neat. Well, great. Well, again, thank you for being with us. And we're looking forward to getting into this topic. And I thought, for the folks listening again, you know, we've got a kind of a mix of leaders listening, we've got folks that that leaders at the top of cities and counties around the country, and we've got middle managers, and then we've got, like frontline supervisors, right, leading employees. And so everybody kind of is responsible a bid for this conversation we're having today. And I wanted to just ask you, for everybody listening, maybe people that really haven't researched D, what does it mean? Could you just give us kind of a flyover at a high level what it is, and maybe even some of the misconceptions that are out there about about the piano? Yes, absolutely. So one of the things that I often say when I'm talking about dei diversity, equity, and inclusion is really to frame the difference between them. So if we start with diversity,

when we're talking about diversity, we're talking about representation, we're talking about,

you know, population and who's included in those populations. And from a diversity perspective, we're tending to talk about identities that people possess. And so from a diversity perspective, it could be race and ethnicity, it could be being a part of the LGBTQ community, it could be accessibility, and it could be religion. And so they're all of these different aspects of diversity. But generally, we're talking about representation, when we're talking about diversity. When we talk about equity, we're generally talking about access and processes that lead to an outcome that's favorable, not necessarily favorable, but the impact of that on these different, you know, diverse groups or identities that make up diversity. And so

oftentimes, when we're working with individuals on equity, we're looking at compensation practices, we're looking at hiring practices, we're looking at promotion practices. And so those are those practices equitable, or the outcomes that are created for different populations. Similar and are the processes or the support that's needed, aligned with what those different communities may need. And so, equity, I like to you know, kind of bucket in process and outcomes that we're focused on. And inclusion, I tend to talk about the environment that we're creating and the space that we're operating in, and how we're treating people in the interpersonal relationships that are created. And so one of the common misconceptions is we want them together. And so we say Dei, or we say diversity and inclusion, or any other sort of acronym around those things, but we don't really separate them and understand the difference when we're saying diversity. You know, we're talking about representation and people and their identities, and we're talking about equity. We're talking about the process and outcomes created for diverse groups.

And then when we're talking about inclusion, we're talking about the environment that we're creating for people to operate in and thrive within.

No, you're muted.

You're muted, though, deal.

Yeah. Sorry about that forgot. small detail. I like the way you have separated it out and kind of contrasted the three and made it actually kind of simple in a way.

Because, you know, particularly particularly like inclusion, you know, at our, at our senior staff meetings, are we including people, are we including people in praat in the in making decisions even and, and are we including everyone representatively in making decisions, which would be diversity, I guess. So, yeah, I really appreciate that kind of that that sort of background that you've provided. What about misconceptions? What are what are some things out there?

They just aren't true. Or maybe ideas people have about di that necessarily aren't

aren't on the mark, do you think? Yeah, I think one of the things that comes to mind when I think about misconceptions, one, you know, just not fully understanding what we're meaning when we're talking about Miss, you know, when we're talking about Dei, and so we can bring our own perspectives to it like.

So when we think about,

you know that it has to mean that it is, if I'm for one group, and it means I'm not for another group. And so sometimes we bring these perceptions to Dei, that it's about exclusion, or that it's about

that it's often not for everyone. And so we all have identities that we bring to the table, there are times when, and so, you know, we'll talk about this a little bit when there have been historical harms that we need to consider. And so some groups may need a little bit more support just to create a level playing field just to create an opportunity for, for them to feel supported or to thrive. And so what what what what can be a misconception is by focusing on that, it means that we're not going to focus on something else, or it means that someone else won't. And it's really about broadening the pie, and not necessarily restricting you.

Hmm, oh, I like that. Yeah, that's a that's a really neat way of thinking about it, broadening the pot, as opposed to restricting it. And I think about we have a couple of local governments that we serve that are in, in terms of race, they're in very diverse communities, African American and white, predominantly, let's say 40% 40%, something like that. But their staff at the city or county does not look that way.

It's predominantly white.

And you could make an argument that, that maybe the African American community doesn't have as many people that are already skilled in some of these skills that they need. So they're not, quote unquote, prepared. But what that means, I think, for us, for everyone is that we, you're right, we might have to take a few extra steps to help people get to where they need to be, because they haven't had those kind of opportunities to learn and grow like, like other groups have had those opportunities. So it takes extra effort and intention. But that, as you say, that widens the pie, I think rather than sort of narrowing that kind of what you're talking about. Yeah, and I'll give you an example. And that can link in so if we take that, and let's say, you know, using the DEI definitions, you know, broad definitions that I shared. And so we're looking at the staff make up inside of,

inside of, you know, city, city staff government. And, you know, to your point, more of the staff may be why, even though the population that it serves may be have a higher percentage of, of

black people. And so

that would be diversity that we're looking at. And so there may be a desire to increase the number of, you know, black people that are represented within the staff positions, and the leadership positions inside of city government. And then to your point around, you know, what might be the process of support that's needed to get there, that would be an equity, you know, focus, right? And like, how do we create solutions or processes that will lead us to where we want to go, and it may not be overnight. One, it may just be a matter of looking different, you know, looking differently, right, and identifying people in the community who do have the requisite skill set that's needed. But the other, you know, solution may look like, because some work that we did was with an organization that had a similar challenge. And we built out an HR leadership program that was focused primarily on identifying

minority, or really people of color in the community, and helping to support growth and providing them with

you know, additional learning opportunities and mentoring to help prepare them so that there would be more individuals in the community who could who could move into these or, you know, move into these positions. And this was something that was sponsored by, you know, by that organization. And so, yes, it took a you know, a bit more from a resource perspective to do something like that, but they were committed to the outcome of increasing you know, the, the representation of people of color inside of their organization. And this was one way that they that they decided to do it.

Yeah, yeah, that's good. I like that in terms of that.

benefit, you know, what's the?

What's the silver lining here? I mean, there's some obvious things, of course, but in your experience working with local government agencies or private businesses, how has it benefited? The organization? Or do you get a better, more creativity more? Are the markets that they serve better serve, because of Dei? What's the benefit? There's so many. But I'll try and narrow them down to the top that I that I see. One is definitely the output, right that an organization receives because there are diverse perspectives that are, you know, that are engaged and involved in the process. And so that's, you know, that's a benefit in terms of having, you know, those perspectives, and some of the similar lived experiences of people in the community can absolutely provide better service, provide better perspective, leverage,

elevate voices that are perspectives that may not often, you know, be considered if those individuals were not at the table. And so that can be a benefit to organizations. And there's, there's another piece, I've read a book earlier this year, called the healing organization by Raj disodium.

And what it talks about is organizations taking on for just the areas that they're responsible for some of the addressing some of the social issues that we see inside of, you know, communities, and, you know, counties and states and, you know, countries that we live in. And I think it's a different call for, you know, from a dei perspective, when organizations are saying, you know, and the example that they give in this book is a organization who has finds that they have employees that are living below the poverty level, and they are an organization that pays at a higher rate. And so they weren't really understanding why were these employees still living below the poverty level and struggling, when, you know, the rates that they were being paid were higher than, you know, some other areas, and other companies. And what they found was in this is not inside the United States, it was outside the United States, but what they found was, some of their employees were so acceptable to these advertisements around, you know, getting a cell phone and paying with credit, right, and getting used to getting the cell phone, by credit, and then they'd end up with these astronomical bills, and then they lose the phones, but they still had these super high interest rates, and we're having to pay on the phones, and it was keeping them at, you know, below the poverty level, even though they were making more money. And so what this organization decided to do for that, you know, small percentage of their population is bring them into the fold, understand what were some of those issues and doing that they uncovered this, you know, specific issue, but they provided financial literacy training for their employees. And their goal was not that we're going to take this on for the world and try and eradicate poverty, you know, across the whole country, or even within that whole city, or, you know, within an entire country. But within the space of what they were responsible for, they took the responsibility to give this added and, you know, provide this additional information in need

to do what they could to eradicate poverty. And so the what I love about this particular book is it it gives us a different viewpoint on why we should take on, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion activities. And so not only will it benefit the team and the organization, in the communities and clients and customers and organizations serve, but there's also an opportunity to address real needs inside of

the space that just that organization has influence on that can eradicate some of the issues that we've been trying to tackle for, you know, decades and even centuries. And so there's there's a higher calling from a dei perspective that that teams and leaders can take.

Yeah, I completely agree a higher higher calling. That's kind of a nice way to think about it. We both have a common friend in joy Marshall. And joy is one of our lead facilitators here at leader gov African American. I would say yuck color a young woman, young lady, and she is young. But she is a dynamo and just got this bubbly personality and always in a great mood. It's hard

To get her in a bad mood.

And being African American young woman,

wow, she has added so much to our team. She's, she's added, you know, she just has a perspective on things. As she's female, and before, you know, having her it was just, it was just 10. And me for the most part. So female, wow, that's a different perspective, African American female, Whoa, that's a different perspective.

She's in downtown Atlanta, I'm out way out in the suburbs, another perspective, and she add something to our service delivery really special. And people like it, people like to see different angles. And so one of the outcomes for us has just been a better experience for our customers. And facilitation, they like the process better, because we're not kind of one one perspective, if you will. And it's been just a wonderful thing, and she's a lovely person.

So we've definitely benefited from from trying to reach out and be a little more open to other perspectives and other backgrounds and including,

and in her case, she's teaching us things about training, we're not having to too much detail per she's, he's pretty far up the learning curve.

But you

know, what I'll add to that is there's, there's also a listening, that different perspectives bring to the table, right, and so, so and so what I mean by that is there's a nuance and an understanding that

we all bring based on our experiences, you know, based on our lived experiences, and in different environments, it can be really helpful to have that nuance, you know, inside of your organization, because there are things that that person will perceive and understand that you won't, that I won't, that others won't, but based on having that lived experience. So they'll go, they'll there will be things that they'll pick up on that I'll pick up on that you'll pick up on and so having more of that inside of your organization, it can sometimes support not being as tone deaf as we can sometimes be just because that's not our every day. And we don't hear that in the same way. And we don't experience that in the same way. And so it can sharpen,

it can sharpen our ability to listen, it can sharpen our ability to connect, it can sharpen our ability to reach people that we may not otherwise be able to reach without having that that person on the team. Yeah, yeah. And I just I, that listening, you kind of you kind of hit a hit a nerve there about about listening better from from diversity, and in particular, because I think of leadership characteristics were in the leadership development business. And so leaders are listening to this podcast today. And we say to leaders, hey, you need to be curious. You need to be, you know, Leaders are readers. They read books, they're curious, they want to learn, they want to grow. They're open, they're open to new ideas, new perspectives, divert, they're open to diversity. They ask questions, tell me more about this helped me understand this. They're empathetic, wow, I can't believe that happened to you. I'm so sorry. I can't really relate to it, but that you must feel terrible. That's empathy. And so we've got all of these leadership skills that people know that we teach in our in our workshops. And it seems to me that some of them could come in kind of handy, as you think about the ER, right, being empathetic, listening, being curious, being open, is that what do you find those kinds of leadership skills helpful as people approach that the topic? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One of the courses that we teach we, we have a conversation model that we talk about, and so it includes very much many of those, you know, elements that you just mentioned, and they can serve in a variety of ways. So I would say that there are two pieces to this from a dei perspective

one is

having historical context can be helpful. Right and so there's there's definitely a learning that leaders and individuals should journey on to just improve some of their you know, knowledge and maybe that's your conversation, maybe that's through books, maybe that's through articles, podcasts, videos, all you know, all the things that are focused on helping to understand and uncover

lived experiences of other individuals. So that's helpful as from a context perspective. The second piece that I would say is important around this is


how people feel, and how much you show that you care about them, gives you credibility to have conversations that you might not otherwise have even providing feedback, right, and sharing some ways that a person can improve.

Or even sharing ways that a person is fantastic, right, and how they're demonstrating, you know, their strengths. And so how we get to that are in all of those things that you mentioned, right. And so relating to someone on a person to person, human to human, you know, perspective starts with curiosity. It includes empathy, and includes listening. And

one of the things that we talk about, you know, that's connected to that in our in our workshop is acknowledgement. And it is a powerful way to be a witness to, you know, the experience that you've had with someone the experience that someone has shared with you. And it's not necessarily about, you know, sort of repeating back everything that the person said, but just, you know, sharing Thank you, I didn't know that I didn't have that perspective before. I didn't understand that to the degree that, you know, you just outlined or shared, and it can be a powerful way to, you know, show that empathy and connect with someone in conversation.

Even if, you know, even if someone is not reacted positively, you know, to something that you've said, just providing that kind of acknowledgement can go a long way in those conversations. Yeah, uh, you know, I think I think about all these leadership traits you just mentioned, that we're talking about. And

it seems to me that they all kind of connect back to love.

Because if I am a person of peace, if I'm a person of love, and care and concern for others,

at the end of the day, that's, that's loving other people,

then I'm going to be more open to listening to them, I'm trying to understand their perspective, including them in the process, creating processes and

situations where there's more fairness.

But that's because I love people, right? I love

engaging and serving and helping other people kind of a servant leader, kind of a model. So yeah, had to that


creating some self awareness to ride like in connection with that, right? Because I, it's funny, my when I when I, when I talk with different individuals, Mike, my standard come from is that,

you know, everyone is good, right? And, you know, I have caveats around that, because obviously, we see bad things happening in the world, but underneath, and at our core, we're good people, right? And loving and loving people, I do think that there's sometimes things that can cover that up, and so it doesn't all shine through. And so there's a need to be self reflective about what may be going on at any given moment that even even when we're wanting to come from love.

You know, if we've had a bad day, you know, we're traffic was bad, or, you know, the morning didn't go the way that we wanted the morning to go. And our general disposition is that a positivity and, and love and being supportive, but there are times when there are things that can cloud that, or perspectives that we have. And so

it's important to just reflect on that in those interactions. And so, because sometimes there may be there may not be an awareness of how something that's coming across even Yes, and we're coming from a place of yes, even when we have love in our heart. And I think that that's a little bit, you know, an important component from a dei perspective.

That I, you know, I wanted to make sure that I mentioned Yeah, 100% In fact, I think you're getting closer to the maybe the rub. And because in our work with with joy, who I mentioned earlier, Joy Marshall. You know, I've said some kind of, like, almost racially insensitive things to her, not knowing that I said something kinda like stupid, because my perception was it wasn't offensive. That was my little world I live in. I didn't say anything. I didn't mean anything. You know, she said, Well, you know, it came across this way because this is my perspective and like, Whoa, really? Yeah. And then me if I say something that offends her, and she tells me she's offended, then I can't really get like mad at her right. I'm the one that said it. Now. I didn't know I said it. Right.

Didn't I didn't know, I wasn't aware. Now I'm aware. That's cool. That's good. So I say Joy, thank you so much for letting me know, how I came across. I just wasn't aware that those words are the way I said it was going to get get the reaction from you that it did. And I can't take that I can't take her reaction personally, I, you know, she's she's being actually very kind and thoughtful. And so we can get into these kinds of tense conversations that are uncomfortable. And I have to be open to the fact that, okay, I'm learning here, I'm growing, and I'm my perspectives getting bigger. And I can't I can't get all

reactive to everything that someone says to me, right. Yeah, and I imagine we can couple that, just imagine we can couple that with, you know, general leadership skills, when we're leading people, right, and leading teams, there will be times that we will make mistakes, we won't have all of the facts, we won't have all the information. And, you know, we can make comments. And so it happens in you know, regular sort of everyday work, you know, settings. And it absolutely happens from, you know, cultural and social perspectives, because they're just things that we don't know.

And I often say this in some of the work that we do, you know, I'm my lived experiences as a African American black woman, you know, in the south.

And I've lived all over the United States, so a different, you know, in different cities and places, and I don't know, every black woman's, you know, or African American woman's experience, right. And so they're things that I can say at times that are offensive, or take on stereotypes or perspectives that I have about people. And certainly, that extends to other, you know, other races and ethnicities, right, where there's just not, it's impossible for us to know everything about every, you know, group of people and nuances within within those. And so, you know, going back to your point around the curiosity, skill, and acknowledgement, as a way to balance those can be helpful. If someone responds and says, Well, that was, you know, that was offensive. One of the things you hear often times with black women is hair. And so one day, you know, she may have long curly hair, and the next day, she may have braids, or one day, it may be, you know, have one color, and another day, it may be another color. And so sometimes that's one of the things where people can, you know, mention hair, and not know, the sensitivity, and there's a historical context to it. And the historical context is, you know, my first job was at Stone Mountain Park, I remember way back when 2018 No, I don't know, whatever, 30 years ago,

you know, hearing the policies, and you couldn't have more than two braids.

And so that worked, if you had your hair in, you know, pigtails with two braids, or if you just had one, but if you were someone that wore your hair in the ways that we're seeing a lot of women wear their hair, now with multiple braids, that would not have been acceptable way back then. Right. And so there were policies that were in place. And so now we see laws, like the crown act that make it, you know, illegal, you know, in some places to have policies or, you know, policies inside of your organizations that have those types of restrictions. But there's a place that it comes from too, right, and it's not. And so even though we may innocently say, Oh, wow, you know, you're here is, you know, beautiful, and it looked completely different yesterday, there's a context there that some women come, you know, black women in particular come to the table with where it wasn't okay, to wear our hair in a particular way. It had to be, you know, straight or, you know, you know, so I just give that as an example, in context for if you're not aware of that as a situation and you make that really simple, you know, complement what it can mean, because there's so much history and context around that particular issue that we're obviously aware of, but you may not be aware of or others may not be.

Yeah, great. That's a really great example. You know, I completely get it. And I think as leaders, our encouragement counter at leader gov and these podcasts is to push leaders a little bit put to push and to provide ideas, thoughts, principles, and then push push us out of our comfort zone a little bit. That's kind of what we do. It's like, hey, let's try this. Let's step into this

Let's let's let's move in this direction. And, and this the topic is one of those where I we are saying to the folks listening to this podcast, Hey, be curious, ask questions, engage, participate, think about research, read a book, you know, take some steps in this direction, because you want to care for and love and support the people around you holistically everyone, not just you know, your your group, as we kind of wind up here in the next minute or two. Can you just provide a couple of thoughts?

Maybe some next step ideas like what what kind of leader do what are some simple things a leader can do to better engage their audience, their stakeholders, from this dei perspective.

So a few things come to mind. First is education and learning, like look for ways to just just learn a little bit more, you know, participating and listening to podcasts like these are helpful, because there are opportunities to learn. But as I mentioned earlier, reading books, reading articles, having conversations from people that you may not, you know, often have conversations with would be helpful in doing that, right. And so I just want to caution to in terms of being curious, you may not always get the response that you want, by asking the question and leaning into curiosity. And so there's a piece of

not taking it personally. And, you know, having a self care plan. This is where acknowledgement can come in as a way to just, you know, kind of share back what you've heard, even if it was, you know, goodness, what I said, offended you, and I'm, you know, that was not my intention, I apologize for that. And thank you for, you know, sharing that it takes a strong leader to do that. Because, you know, when someone pushes on us, our natural instinct is to push back to be defensive. And so I just caution around doing that everybody won't respond in the same way. Someone if you ask them a question, they may say, it's not my job to teach you, you need to go learn that on your own. Someone, if you ask a question may share and you know, give information and you don't know necessarily who you're talking to. And so you just have to be prepared that the answer may be no, one of the things that we do mention, often when we're teaching on the subject is ask permission to to engage in a conversation. And that can help make sure that you're on the same page, you never know what someone is going through, they may have had a horrible day, and it might not be the right time to engage and learn from that particular person. So that's an important caution. And then the other piece of I would say, is just really around self reflection and self examination. I mean, one of the things about dismantling some of the, and, and reducing and eliminating some of the inequities that we see, you know, based on identity, it's about understanding the systems that are in play. And and by systems, I mean, those unnatural,

unintentional, you know, things that we unconscious things that we participate in and do that uphold, you know, creating some of these inequities, and that takes self reflection, it takes reflecting on our own thoughts and how we're showing up, it takes reflecting on the processes that we're using inside of our organization, and it takes intentional,

you know, reflection on how is this impacting these different groups? And are they getting what they need out of, you know, this particular process or this particular procedure? Or is there something different that we need to do?

So I know that that's a lot. And so I would say maybe pick one of those things, just to start with, but I think that's important context, as leaders are moving forward with this with this journey. Yeah, and you provided some resource, which we're going to put that in the attach some of those resources to the podcast for people to download. Thank you for that. And thank you for joining us today and bringing a bit more light and education and background on this important topic. We, as I said earlier, we we like to encourage and push and cajole the folks around us in our community and really

asked them to be more intentional and these different leadership areas, whether it's building trust or respect or accountability, whatever the topic is, today, it happens to be looking at being self reflective, as you say, and then looking at our organizations saying how can we make it more D friendly, more diverse, more inclusive, more equitable. So thank you for sharing some of your insights. I want to encourage the folks listening

thing, you know, to check out your organization. And, again, the organization is called Beyond racial equity. That's beyond racial And there's a framework that you all have developed to help move organizations through this process to create a plan. So things are actually acted upon and put into practice, which, which we're big believers in. So thank you for being a part of the conversation to Ken. Awesome, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. It was great.

Just to be able to talk about this topic, and I'm excited for what your listeners will take away and definitely reach out if there any questions that I can answer. And check out some of the resources. I think that they'll be helpful.

Excellent. We'll do thank you. I hope you have a wonderful day. You too. Thanks, Bill.

Okay, so as we wrap up here, if you all have a topic, podcast topic that you would like for us to cover here and at our leader, Gov podcasts, let us know. You can get me at Bill at leader And as usual, we love serving and providing resources for you as leaders to help you grow and do a better job at what you're doing. Thank you for working in local government and serving the community. Hope you have a great day take care bye bye

LifeLab DEI Playbook
12 Practical Diversity and Inclusion Activities